Big Mistake Wheels

Big Mistake Wheels

BMW Motorcycle brake recall

This news is a little old, but since I posted the car one I didn't want to leave out our bike owners...


R-Series boxer-twins and K1200GT motorcycles, manufactured between August 2006 and May 2009, to be recalled
Read more: visordown

BMW to recall 350,000 cars amid brake fears

The company said a leak could develop in the power braking system, leading to a vacuum loss and the reduction of power braking assistance.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8036676/BMW-to-recall-350000-cars-amid-brake-fears.html

Ox powered BMW protest - China

Miss Ma spent 700,000rmb on buying the BMW 525i in April 2008, she quickly found that the Beemers gearbox would jump out of gear by itself, obviously indicating a possible product defect, then the cars electrical system would die for no reason. Miss Ma claims that one time when the engine cut out when she was in traffic, she nearly crashed into another car. Miss Ma says she has tried to reach an agreement with the dealership, and BMW but both refuse to change her car for a new one, so she feels she was left with no other resort but to take her 5-series to the streets of Guangzhou, outside the dealer she bought the defective car.

At lunch time, two traffic policeman appeared and asked Miss Ma to remove the lettering from the BMW.

Miss Ma later explained her choice of Ox to tow her stricken BMW “I wanted to use a horse, but horses move too quick.” A horse would be symbolic of the Chinese name for BMW, which is lit. ‘Treasure Horse’

Once the Ox and its 5-series train reached the BMW dealership where Miss Ma bought her motor, the workers in the dealership came out to look, people stopped to take a look at the commotion, which eventually forced the BMW dealerships manager to come out and say ‘We need to talk!’, and a few moments later Miss Ma reportedley had reached an agreement with the dealership to fix her 5-series.

However, this approach to getting peoples attention has been done before, by a Mr. Zhao who was also unhappy with his X5

I bought this X5 BMW in 2004. The car cost me almost one million yuan. Because I trusted the BMW brand, I bought the car thinking it would bring convenience to my commute. Instead, it has caused numerous problems over the last three years. The problems have included ignition failure, brake failure, loss of power and loss of directional control of vehicle while driving. These problems have often posted a serious threat to my safety. These problems have existed since the day I bought the car. I have spent a lot of time and money repairing the car; the car has been repaired in Wenzhou, Nanjing, and Hefei. But each time, the same problem would reappear within a week. I complained to BMW, asking them to justify these repeated problems, and demanded they issue an explanation to affected customers. But my efforts have had no result. Therefore, in light of BMW’s extreme irresponsibility, I make a formal statement here: I demand a new car or a full refund. If BMW continues to ignore my requests and refuses to explain themselves, I will call for the public and the media to expose BWM’s behavior and protect my rights as a consumer. I will take following steps since no alternatives exist: Step one: Buffalo pulling BMW This stage will last one week. I will use the slogan “BMW is irresponsible to customers, protest against BMW’s poor quality products”. The media (all major newspapers, websites, Phoenix TV , Dagongpao) will be invited to report on the event. I have strong faith in the fairness, justice and trustworthiness of the media. If BMW still doesn’t respond, this activity will be continued for another week with more intense coverage from the media. Step two: Smashing the car If the BMW company still doesn’t respond, I will smash the car. The media will report the car smashing in real time to the whole country, the whole of Asia, and the whole world. At this point, I will no longer accept compensation from BMW; I will consider my loss of property the price I paid to keep other potential customers from being fooled as I was fooled. … I call for the consumers of the whole world to protest together: Refuse to buy BMW! Refuse to let BMW enter our countries! BWM is untrustworthy! BMW service is bad!

J.D. Power and Associates 2010 Vehicle Dependability Study

The study, which measures problems experienced by original owners of three-year-old (2007 model year) vehicles, includes 198 different problem symptoms across all areas of the vehicle.  Overall dependability is determined by the level of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality. 

Stalling follow up

After reading yesterdays post by an unknown reader I google'd and it appears there lots of stalling issues with the GT, not only does it stall but all the lights go off, read some more here:
http://www.aboutautomobile.com/Complaint/2009/BMW/K1300+GT/Engine
http://www.aboutautomobile.com/Complaint/2009/BMW/K1300+GT/Engine+and+Engine+Cooling+System
http://www.aboutautomobile.com/Complaint/2009/BMW/K1300+S/Engine
http://www.aboutautomobile.com/Complaint/2009/BMW/K1300+S/Engine+and+Engine+Cooling+System


I also found a polls on forums.
http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=23460

http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18977&page=3&pp=10


All I can say is wow! My only complaint with my K1300R is the geometry and engine noise, but the K1300R (not available in the US) shares the engine with the GT and S.

BMW k1300gt motorcycle stalls

My 2009 BMW k1300gt motorcycle stalls while slowing with the clutch pulled in. Many other owners of BMW k1300 series motorcycles are having the same stalling issues and other stalling issues and BMW is not addressing this issue. My motorcycle stalled while crossing an intersection which of course is very dangerous. Owners are pleading with BMW to recall this dangerous problem and they are doing nothing. We please ask that you to take action with BMW on this ongoing matter.

J.D. Power and Associates 2010 Initial Quality Study

The 2010 Initial Quality Study is based on responses from more than 82,000 purchasers and lessees of new 2010 model-year vehicles surveyed after 90 days of ownership. The study is based on a 228-question battery designed to provide manufacturers with information to facilitate identification of problems and to drive product improvement. The study was fielded between February and May 2010. 

Class Action - BMW Software Causes Engine Problems

A class action filed in California yesterday says that software unilaterally installed by BMW on several turbocharged models led to dangerous turbo lag and other engine problems.

The suit, brought in the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California, implicates the BMW 1-, 3-, and 5-Series lines, as well as the Z4 convertible, X5 sport utility, and X6 crossover. 

All subject vehicles were manufactured between 2007 and 2010 and are equipped with the "N54" engine, a three-liter six-cylinder motor equipped with a twin turbo.

According to the suit, BMW tried to remedy an "undisclosed defect" with the cars by installing an updated version of its so-called "Engine Control Unit" (ECU) software. The defect allegedly originated in the cars' turbochargers, fuel pumps, gas waste mechanisms, and/or turbo software.

The plaintiffs contend that BMW installed the updated ECU software without customers' permission and, in some cases, without their knowledge. The complaint says that BMW installed the software "whenever one of the vehicles in question appeared in the service department of a BMW dealership, regardless of the reason for the service visit." Thus, consumers who experienced "problems with loud rattling...under the hood," for example, were unwittingly outfitted with updated ECU software and sent on their way.

Shortly after the software update, consumers began to complain of engine problems, specifically "loss of power in the lower RPM [revelations per minute] range, decreased fuel efficiency, and most notably, turbo acceleration lag."

Turbo lag, a little-known but potentially dangerous phenomenon, describes a delay between the time a turbocharged car's accelerator is depressed and the time its engine develops enough power to properly accelerate. Turbo lag presents an especially serious risk if it occurs on a highway on-ramp or other area where traffic is moving quickly.

According to the suit, BMW at first dismissed consumers' complaints, assuring them that their respective experiences were "normal." As the complaints continued to grow in number, BMW allegedly installed more ECU updates in a futile attempt to make the problems go away. The plaintiffs also contend that BMW quietly did away with ads bragging that the automaker "eliminated turbo lag altogether."

The class is being represented by Wayne Barney of Orange County. Barney began experiencing turbo lag after his 2007 BMW 335i was serviced for a faulty fuel pump. Barney communicated his concerns to BMW several times, but was "repeatedly assured that he was mistaken about the existence of any problems."

The suit alleges breach of implied and express warranties; breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing; deceptive trade practices; and breach of the Magnuson-Moss Act, a federal statute that governs consumer product warranties. The plaintiffs accuse BMW of "us[ing] ECU software to deceive its customers and avoid the cost and labor of properly resolving the hardware problems, which required actual engine work and/or part replacement that was covered under BMW's warranty." The class is seeking compensatory damages and an injunction.

Read more: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2009/12/ca_bmw.html#ixzz0wA4WJEBt

Settlement Achieved on Behalf of BMW 5-Series Owners and Lessees

Girard Gibbs represented owners and lessees of the 2004-2005 model year 5-Series BMW, in a class action lawsuit alleging that BMW concealed a known design defect in the seat occupation detection system in these vehicles. On September, 14, 2007, Judge Wendell Mortimer granted final approval to a settlement agreement providing for the reprogramming of the seat occupation system, free of charge to all class members.

The 2004 5-Series BMW owners manual states that the vehicle contains a seat occupation detection system, which deactivates the front passenger sear airbags when a child occupies that seat. This protects the child from potential injury caused by the impact of inflating airbags. According to the manual, when an adult exceeding a certain weight threshold occupies the front passenger seat, the airbags remain active. The lawsuit contended that, contrary to these representations, the deactivation indicator lit up when adults significantly exceeding the weight threshold occupied the front passenger seat, indicating that the airbag system was deactivated.

The complaint alleged that, by concealing the defective nature of the airbags, BMW was able to sell more vehicles and charge more for the vehicles than they would have otherwise. The complaint further alleged that BMW's failure to implement an effective remedy for this problem, constituted a breach of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, covering all class vehicles sold or leased in California.

Girard Gibbs negotiated a settlement requiring BMW to reprogram the occupation detection systems at no charge. 

BMW Sub-Frame Settlement Approved

We are pleased to report that the BMW 3 Series (E46) Sub-Frame Settlement has been granted final court approval. In response to allegations that 1999-2006 BMW 3 Series vehicles can suffer from sub-frame cracking that enlarges over time, BMW has agreed to provide the following benefits:

(1) If you paid for a sub-frame repair to your 1999-2006 BMW 3 Series vehicle, you can obtain reimbursement from BMW by submitting a completed claim form and proof of expenditure to the Claims Administrator. Claim forms can be downloaded from http://www.e46subframeclassactionsettlement.com and should be mailed to the address listed on the claim form. The deadline to postmark you claim is September 9, 2010.

(2) If you currently own or lease a 1999-2006 BMW 3 Series vehicle, you can contact an authorized BMW dealer and make an appointment to receive a free sub-frame inspection. If the inspection reveals any sub-frame cracking, the dealer will provide a free repair as well. The deadline for free sub-frame inspections is September 9, 2010, for vehicles no longer under warranty. If your vehicle remains under warranty, you will have one year from the expiration of your warranty to receive a free sub-frame inspection.

To learn more about the BMW Sub-Frame Settlement, please visit  http://www.e46subframeclassactionsettlement.com, where you can download a claim form and read answers to frequently asked questions. Any extensions of the deadlines listed above will be posted on the website as well.

Many thanks to all of the BMW 3 Series owners and lessees who contacted us over the last few years to share their experiences. The relief provided through the BMW Sub-Frame litigation and settlement would not have been possible without the level of consumer involvement and concern that this issue received. 

Thought this may interest you

Bitter BMW owner's peak-hour protest

A BMW owner filled his convertible with lemons and parked it out the front of a Sylvania dealership from 5am this morning.

The car caused chaos on the Princes Highway as commuters slowed to a standstill to watch the spectacle.

Bryan Wiseman, of Sylvania, said his luxury purchase was plagued with mechanical and electrical faults from the time he bought it new, two years ago.

"It all started not long after I bought the car when the mats rolled up over the pedals, causing me to have an accident because I rode up over a gutter (to avoid an accident)."

"It has broken down in the middle of the night; I had to wait for four hours to get it towed because the thing wouldn't start.

"I've had the window jammed, I got stuck on the side of the M5 midway because the roof wouldn't go back on."

Mr Wiseman said BMW had applied bigger strips of Velcro to the mats but refused to fix a dent to the bottom of the car.

"I never made a claim on my insurance in my life and I'm not about to start now," he said.

He parked the vehicle out the front of the dealership, covered in lemon stickers and filled with real lemons, in a bid to end a two-year battle with manager Anthony Rodriguez.

"I'm not confident in driving this car because it has broken down on me that often," Mr Wiseman said.

"It has been in the shop getting fixed more times than I care to remember, I'm absolutely sick and tired of it."

The BMW 335ci was the third car he had purchased from the dealership.

"They said we can't fix it because we don't know what is wrong with it," Mr Wiseman said.

Sylvania BMW manager Mr Rodriguez refused to respond to Mr Wiseman's prank this morning.

"Sylvania BMW has no comment to make," a spokeswoman said.

About your name

There is an excellent BMW shop in UK that is called MotorWorks, http://www.motorworks.co.uk/ with a long history and good reputation in Europe

 

While I in no way suspect your intention to mock this company, perhaps a line or two in the header to clearify that your name by no means is connected or intended to harm this company will do everybody (except lawyer) a favour.

 

Sincerely

Knut Klungrehaug

BMW called me

Scott Norman called me this evening Wednesday 14th July, said he saw the ebay auction (I told him it was on there last week) and would like to work something out.

He said he'd try and have it worked out by the weekend.


Of course that was a BMW weekend; 2 weeks later I call him and he says he was away for a week and still trying to work something out.


Scott Rioz (auction winner) still hasn't replied to my emails. I think it's too far fetched to believe BMW could have bid on the bike as a prank, and there's no way Scott Norman would use Scott Rioz... but I did also email the marketing manager Miles Davis at BMW, so maybe...

I spoke too soon

Scott Rioz hasn't replied to my emails he has 0 feedback. The prospects of this being a serious bid are diminishing.

It's sold!

Woohoo the bike has sold

Now I'm going to get a Yamaha MT-01 with cash to spare :)

I called Steve @ Fraser

I called Steve at Fraser's to see if we can work something out before the bike gets sold. He asks me to come in the next day.


I turn up on Saturday 10th of July.


After a lot of standing and waiting I test ride a GS1200... didn't think much of it.


They inspect my bike and offer me a $14,000 trade in deal for a new K1300R... woohoo I'm so happy, not! If they'd included a dog biscuit I may have said OK.


Look my bike is like new.

I would just like to note that Fraser Motorcycles have been fantastic throughout my ordeal, they didn't even sell me the bike, they've let me try a couple others and have tried to arrange something where they don't lose money.


Thank you Fraser.

It's going on eBay

I've given up, it's going on eBay.


http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150462519645

Still no word.

I call Steve from Fraser's a couple of times and he just gives me the run around. He eventually says Scott is checking with BMW Germany for the correct wheel offset.


Then 10 days or so later... I call again and he says the offset is within specifications.

I would just like to note that Fraser Motorcycles have been fantastic throughout my ordeal, they didn't even sell me the bike, they've let me try a couple others and have tried to arrange something where they don't lose money.

Thank you Fraser.

Received a call from Steve Fraser Motorcycles (important)

Steve tells me he's been speaking with Scott about my bike and wants me to bring mine in and test their demo bike.


So I turn up on a weekday so he isn't too busy.
He gets on my bike and I get on the demo, a standard K1300R not an SE like mine.


We go for a short ride... and I immediately notice that the bike is perfectly straight just like all the others. The clutch lever was loose though... I mean really loose.


While riding behind my bike I could tell it was leaning slightly to the right from the mirrors.


We get back and Steve asks me to get the wheel offset measured, I tell him you guys already did it and said there was no offset.


He says well that was then, this is now... so he gives me the directions to a repair shop 15km down the road.


I take the bike there and they measure the offset with a 50-60cm aluminium ruler with a laser pointer marking where the pointer touches the floor.


Then they wheel the bike forward make sure it's vertical and measure it again.


Guess what? There's a 7mm right offset. So the rear wheel is 7mm more to the right. You may remember BMW's qualified technicians said there was no offset.


Steve says he'll be in contact soon.

I would just like to note that Fraser Motorcycles have been fantastic throughout my ordeal, they didn't even sell me the bike, they've let me try a couple others and have tried to arrange something where they don't lose money.

Thank you Fraser.

Final offer to BMW

In the hope of finally getting this nightmare over and done with I emailed the Managing Director Stavros Yallouridis

Dear Stavros.

I apologize for this intrusion on your busy schedule, but I have an issue with a BMW Motorrad K1300R I have been trying to resolve for the past 8 months.

I'm going to be as brief as possible.

I bought a new K1300R which had steering misalignment and it leans to the right from day 1.

Scott Norman of BMW had the bike inspected and the technicians found no fault. After many conversation and inspections I ended up fixing the steering myself. Unfortunately I'm unable to fix the lean.

Attached is a PDF which explain the whole story in more detail and below is my final offer to BMW.

Yours sincerely, 

================================================================

Dear Scott.

Further to our phone conversation I would like to clarify my position, in the hope that we can resolve the issue amicably and promptly.

I understand your position is that you trust your technicians point of view that there is no fault.

I trust my observations over a significantly longer period of time, I trust my colleagues observation and note that your technicians couldn't fault a glaring issue with the steering alignment.

I consider it a primary requirement that a motorcycle be perfectly aligned and in my 20 years of riding this has always been the case.

My proposal is simple:

1.- I trade in my K1300R for a new K1300R.

2.- We split the cost of the trade in 50/50.

Fraser motorcycles have given me a preliminary quote of $10,000 for a trade in. 

I am prepared to pay $5,000 which should more than adequately cover any value added.

My only motivation is a straight bike, like all the other BMW K1300R's I've ridden and all my other bikes.

The best possible outcome is for me to end up where I started; I am willing to pay $5,000 to end up where I started.

Regardless of your decision I will be trading in my K1300R, because I can't ignore the previously stated observations any longer. If BMW aren't prepared to come to a compromise I will seek to recover all my costs by any means.

I trust you can see how reasonable my offer is and we can put these past 8 months behind us. 

Trade in quote for a new K1300R

I got a trade in quote for a new K1300R from Fraser motorcycles. $10,000.

I finally got a reply from BMW

The letter is dated the 28th of March 2010 but unfortunately I never actually received the letter because Scott confused a 19 with a 16 in my address... so it was emailed to my lawyer on the 7th of April 2010.

Dear Mr 

Firstly, please accept my apologies for the delay in replying to your letter.

The concerns that have been raised in both your letter and previous emails with the attitude of

your BMW K 1300 R when riding have been reviewed once more in further detail.

Although we can appreciate the efforts you have gone to in attempting to find a cause to this perceived defect, the investigations made by qualified Technicians at two BMW Motorrad Dealers have failed to confirm this issue exists. In the interest of ensuring there is no underlying fault, Fraser Motorcycles went to the extra length of checking the alignment of your motorcycle, again no fault was identified. In the absence of a defect we are unfortunately unable to offer a solution to the issues you have raised, I trust you can understand our position on this matter.

It is also expected that slight differences will be detectable when comparing motorcycles, this can be as a result of assembly tolerances or possibly, a defect. Again, if you believe there is a defect with your motorcycle, your preferred BMW Motorrad Dealer will be able to assist you in confirming a fault is present and arranging the necessary repairs.

Thank you again for taking the time to bring your concerns to our attention, if you would like to discuss this or any other issues regarding you BMW Motorcycle further please contact me on 03

9264 4187 during normal business hours or by return email.

Kind Regards,

Scott Norman

Technical Manager - Motorrad

There are no lemon laws in Australia

I spoke to my lawyer at length and he explained that I really didn't have a leg to stand on.

There are no lemon laws in Australia.

Even if you get a 2nd opinion it will be their word against BMW's and BMW have the experience.

He said anything I get him to do will end up costing more than trading the bike in for a new bike.

Options:

1. Contact department of fair trading... I had already done this and they proved completely useless and made me go back to Procycles.
2. Get the bike repaired and send BMW a letter of demand.
3. Trade the bike in... this was his recommendation.

I want a proper K1300R

After test riding the other K1300R it became clear that I needed I proper example; so I got my lawyer to write a letter to BMW.

The letter basically said the below in legal words - observations, pleadings, compromise offer.

BMW Motorrad here's the situation:

1. You have a customer with a new top of the line BMW motorcycle.
2. The new motorcycle is and has been leaning over to the right since he picked it up from the showroom. This in the long run will cause uneven tire wear, be unsafe and have less than perfect handling.
3. Your customer knows without a shadow of a doubt the bike is leaning to the right. A spirit level and a yaw string placed on the wind screen have visually and non-subjectively proven this.
4. Your customer is very dissatisfied with the geometry of his new top of the line BMW bike and doesn't feel safe riding it.
5. Authorized BMW technicians are unable to determine the misalignment, let alone fix it.
6. Your customer had to remedy misaligned steering.
7. Your customer has never had a factory issue with any of his numerous previous motorcycles.
8. Your customer has tried other BMW K1300R motorcycles and none of the exhibited the issues his motorcycles exhibits.
9. Your customer has been trying to get this issue resolved for over 6 months and has expended significant time, money and emotional effort.

Expected outcome:

1. I would like a BMW K1300R like the K1300R's I tested. Given the above the only solution seems to be a new bike or a demo bike in equal condition to mine.
   I am willing to meet the depreciation costs.

OR

2. If you believe K1300R is within manufacturing tolerances I would like you to detail these tolerances in writing.
   eg:
   K1300R steering can be +/- 10 degrees off centre.
   K1300R camber can be +/- 10 degrees off 90 degrees.
   K1300R engines vary in the amount of chatter noise they produce.
   So I can make other unsuspecting consumers aware of the potential issues.

Personal Note:

I didn't purchase the K1300R because I needed to get from A to B. I bought one because the design and specification inspired me. 

I took 5 test rides to confirm the bike was worth almost twice as much as models in the same class before placing my order.

I planned numerous modifications including carbon fiber pieces and an after market exhaust (this is now not possible as the reduced weight will exacerbate the lean).

The K1300R that was delivered to me had immediately noticeable alignment issues which I have fought to have resolved since the first inspection.

I've done 2400km and I had more or less resigned myself to the "BMW experience" until I tried another K1300R, that was perfect. It had no engine chatter, the steering was perfectly straight and it rode perfectly upright.

The demo K1300R felt right just like the other K1300R demo bikes I test rode before placing my order... my K1300R doesn't feel right and I've measured it not to be, my wife is concerned about it's safety and refuses to be a pillion after the steering fiasco. The engine makes a noise like a tensioner or dampener is missing or broken.

I know BMW Motorrad make good K1300R's because I've ridden them, but I also know that your quality is variable as my gear box is smoother than all the demo bikes and this is indicative of a company that doesn't appear to follow a Six Sigma process.

I really hope we can come to a prompt agreement so I can tell my friends how great my K1300R is instead of talking about how wonky it is and how I had to straighten the steering.

Friday 19 February 2010: I contacted Scott Norman asking if there was anything I could do to straighten the bike... I haven't received a reply.  

...I started to resign myself to the fact that I had a leaning bike and tried to talk myself in to thinking it wasn't so bad.

Saturday 13/03/2010: I test rode another K1300R, and the bike exhibited non of the issues that have plagued me. The steering was perfectly straight and the bike rode perfectly straight. Both bikes have a similar amount of km on the clock, but the difference was immediately obvious.

This was the 3rd K1300R I have tested and none of them have exhibited the issues I am experiencing. The engines on these K1300R were even smoother with no chatter noise. These represent the bike I thought I was buying.

Perfect example of a K1300R

What if the bolts came loose?

I stopped riding the bike for a couple of weeks out of fear of the consequences if the bolts came loose with such significant steering play... I was reluctant to return the bike as the technicians hadn't proven themselves very capable. So I continued riding the bike and inspecting the bolts after every ride.

Now that the steering was straight, the leaning became more obvious. 

I did some research and asked questions in forums, gaining valuable information about BMW's history with misalignment and wheel offsets. I also got a message from a UK based BMW technician who informed me that there shouldn't be the amount of play I described in the steering links and that I should get them inspected ASAP.

I also contacted Jon Pearson from Superbike magazine, and he felt the most likely cause was that the bike had been dropped.

I spent weeks trying to find a way to resolve the leaning. I asked Scott Norman if it was possible the engine was installed in the frame slightly off centre.

I purchased panniers for the bike (at great expense) so I could add weights to either side of the bike to determine what weight would make the bike ride straight. 4-7Kg on the right made the bike ride straight. The problem was that the bike would then veer to the right.

Wednesday 27 January 2010: I dropped the bike off at Fraser's to have the wheel offset measured and the steering bolts replaced... they called me up and said they need to order the bolts.

Wednesday 10 February 2010: I dropped the bike off again at Fraser's to have the wheel offset measured and the steering bolts replaced. They replaced the bolts leaving the steering less straight than I had made it before but no where near as misaligned as originally (I guess they did the possible). They also said the wheels where perfectly aligned and there was no issues with leaning. And the steering links were fine. I asked how much offset there was, the reply was quote "There is no offset; 3.5 on either side".